Thursday, March 6, 2008

Changing Sex to Avoid Harassment

Jess McCabe of Britain's F-Word has a piece in The Guardian today about women and online gaming. It seems that due to online harassment (which includes demands to have women post photographs of their breasts or "get the fuck off"), women who play online games like Second Life or World of Warcraft choose to portray themselves as male characters 70 percent of the time.

When Second Life millionaire Ailin Graef appeared on a chat show in the virtual world to discuss her success on the platform - which is more 3D chatroom than game - her character was swarmed by flying pink penises (the attack was arranged by "griefers" - users who spend all their time harassing others).

It seems that the anonymity of (male) users gives them the power to say and do things in a virtual world they might not otherwise do. As McCabe said in her post linking to the article, you could write a whole book on the psychology of harassment. But as far as I can tell, such books and studies don't exist. This is partially due to the "newness" of online communities, but as any female blogger knows, trolls (anonymous harassers) are common. It's strange that in a new world of communication, such old misogynist paradigms still exist.

Cross-posted.

23 comments:

Jabes1996 said...

Once again we are faced with the concept that if it's not a black or a woman who is doing the suffering then none exists.

In online games anybody can be harassed for any reason (and frequently does).

To pretend that male on female harassment is the only type of harassment (or even the 1st most prevalent) is both insulting and untrue.

Also, I read an article in a computer magazine about women in SL who charge somolians for cyber sex (in which the 3D rooms they've fabricated for this pursuit is plastered with actual pics of the woman's body, or voice-overs of her moaning). This cyber-loot can then be transformed into real-life cash.

These woman make about $4 per 20minutes while never leaving their house. There is even a prostitute guild called GVF: Gender Verified Female. The woman must call and talk about herself to verify with the guild leader that she is in female.

Straight shot: yes, there might be some places where women might have it tough.

But, rarely do they have it tougher than men, and nobody ever wants to discuss the "perks" woman often get.

You remind me of women who go into bars and whine about being hit on all night who paid zero cover charge, and drink all night for free.

You lose, try again. I'm sorry are you feeling harassed? Get a tough skin.

Christina said...

Oh, right. Because some women make money from online sex, it's no big deal for ALL women to be sexually harassed and bombarded by "show me your tits!" messages whenever they log on. (Why even bring that up? Some women also make money from phone sex, stripping and prostitution. What's your point? All women are therefore whores and asking for it? It's some sort of privilege to be able to make money from being a whore? What?)

And because bars use "ladies nights" to attract women to their establishments to draw horny guys and make more money, women have it soooo easy. Yeah, the possibility of free drinks TOTALLY makes up for perverts shouting at you on the streets, grabbing your private parts in public, and generally acting like you're a pampered prostitute who can't dare complain because the option to sell your sexuality means you have it SO EASY. It's not like we'd rather have equal pay and the right to walk down the street or get online without random men treating us like fucktoys. The "perks" that women allegedly get (because men want to look at their boobs! How validating!) are no perks at all.

When was the last time you had a dozen repulsive strangers demanding that you show them your penis, I'd like to know? Unless you've been in jail, I doubt you have any idea what that sort of harassment is like.

Oh, but hey, I could always fake moan for disgusting losers online and get some cash! Lucky, lucky me!

Harq al-Ada said...

"To pretend that male on female harassment is the only type of harassment (or even the 1st most prevalent) is both insulting and untrue."

The idea that 70% of women would pretend to be men online because they are hypersensitive babies is what is insulting and untrue. If the glorious booby-attention is a show of positive regard, shouldn't more women use female avatars?

Jabes1996 said...

A) the concept that
"ALL women to be sexually harassed and bombarded by "show me your tits!" messages whenever they log on." Is just false.

I've played EQ and WOW now for almost 5 years and that has never happened in my experience. My wife played her female toons by my side (on her computer), and that NEVER happened to her. In fact most of her disagreements that got heated happened with other FEMALES. If anything females act like they're OWED something in those games.
B)
"ladies nights" to attract women to their establishments to draw horny guys and make more money, women have it soooo easy. free drinks TOTALLY makes up for perverts shouting at you on the streets, grabbing your private parts in public, and generally acting like you're a pampered prostitute"

No women I've ever talked to has EVER complained of men fondling them at bars or anywhere else. It seems pretty logical that this MUST be a very very rare occurrence or the bars would have zero female patrons--DUH!

And if a woman goes back to a bar where that happened how STUPID IS SHE? Do you think the Duke 3 will hire Magnum to strip again?

C)"When was the last time you had a dozen repulsive strangers demanding that you show them your penis, I'd like to know? Unless you've been in jail, I doubt you have any idea what that sort of harassment is like."
No I do not. YOU DO?
You've had this happen to you? Or are you just empathizing with your sisters that you KNOW have had this happen somewhere at some time?

Did it happen to a "friend of a friend"--so out of all the dozens of women you're know and speak to you have one friend/acquaintance this happened to and decided this is common?

If your answer is more than one person YOU KNOW PERSONALLY that this happened to, then maybe it's because you have some F'd up friends!
The simple fact is women are safe in their bodies and possessions in 99% of public places. And the few places they're not safe at many men wouldn't be safe in either.
D)
I simply don't believe this 70% number. You can jury-rig a study (especially one as informal as this) to show whatever you want. This "abuse" just isn't happening, it's BS. I've played with and talked to literally hundreds of people (when you count online chat in guilds) and nobody ever mentioned this. This includes some nice family-style guilds that talked about RL (real-life) fertility problems, family members dying etc... and THIS issue never came up.
It's obviously a load of steaming horse-crap.

I bet you two aren't even mmorpg gamers.

Jabes1996 said...

Not to mention most games have a /ignore command.

Got what pathetic whiners.

God forbid a topic of male suffering (like maybe the genocide of black male on black male murder) be talked about.
So when you sarcastically say "women have it sooooo easy" I say: Yup!

I'm sure many black males would wish for such cream-puff problems as some online jerk crying at them.

I wonder when the last time a black male tried to silence someone at them with a /ignore button?

Go cry me a river.

Jabes1996 said...

Sorry last sentence should have read:

I wonder when the last time a black male tried to silence someone sho.oting at them with a /ignore button?

I think some filter yanked out a word.

aldosterone said...

I am so sick of seeing women called whiners and oversensitive babies whenever they dare to complain of sexism.

The reality is that on a lot of internet sites the minute you admit to being female you're treated as a pair of tits and nothing else.

That's something that really does happen, and to point that out does not constitute whining.

Xyz said...

Hello,
Might I ask the person who has played EQ and WoW for 5 years if he has lost any female friends to this?
From my own 5 years of EQ I've lost a number of female friends who just stopped playing and some who were actually afraid in RL because of some of the harassment they received. I played my gender ambigiously myself to avoid such trouble. Just because you didn't see it on her screen as you watched over her doesn't mean any single women never received such harassment.

Quote: "No women I've ever talked to has EVER complained of men fondling them at bars or anywhere else"
So they were fondled?

Jabes1996 said...

XYZ said:
"Just because you didn't see it on her screen as you watched over her doesn't mean any single women never received such harassment."

"While I watched over her"??
Awww you people are so darn cuuuuute trying to turn everything a man says into the most negative anti-woman thing possible.

We played side-by-side on separate computers on a cable modem. Many times we grouped together with others.

But, whenever my wife had an issue with somebody she would tell me about it. Over the five years she only had a handful. These usually revolved around somebody (of both genders) being rude or impatient.

You are absolutely right that just because I did not see this abuse doesn't mean it didn't happen.

I never said it DIDN'T happen. My point is that (most likely) it's very rare.

But how much anecdotal evidence do you have to collect showing this abuse is very very rare before the truth becomes obvious?

XYZ said:
Quote: "No women I've ever talked to has EVER complained of men fondling them at bars or anywhere else"
So they were fondled?

XYZ I was responding to Christina's post about horny barflies and women in night clubs.

Do try to keep up. The posts here aren't even into double digits yet.

And (unsurprisingly) nobody rebutted this point:

THERE'S AN IGNORE BUTTON on almost ALL online games people!

Sheesh!

You people remind me of the Christians who listen to 4 hours of Howard Stern a day then complain about how bad he is.

Just as you can change the channel on a tv/radio you can hit /ignore and make all your problems go away!

Lastly XYZ I saw a lot of movement in & out of EQ. But mostly I saw movement out. EQ is dying because they believe in sucking as much money from their customer base as possible. They've had like 15 expansions in 3 years. This extra code makes the game super buggy.

The few times guildies talked to me or my wife about leaving EQ the problem was usually a time or money constraint.

This is the first time (ever) in my 5 years, 1000's of hours of playing these games, and 100's of peeps I've talked to and grouped with that I've ever heard of this.

I'd bet my BOTTOM DOLLAR that this issue is EXCEEDINGLY rare.

Harq al-Ada said...

"But how much anecdotal evidence do you have to collect showing this abuse is very very rare before the truth becomes obvious?"

The reason the plural of anecdote is not data is because of the confirmation bias leads people toward evidence that supports what they believe. I notice you do not acknowledge the anecdotal experiences of others, so why should anyone take your experiences as more relevant than this study you decry? Maybe we should just ignore scientific evidence altogether and accept that women are all hysterical and irrational creatures. The problem with sexists claiming sexism doesn't exist is they undercut their arguments immediately. "Sexism doesn't exist--women are just whiny bitches!" Mockery of this kind of blatant idiocy just writes itself.

Your Ladies' Night comment was a non-sequitur. Christina's point is not that Ladies' Nights and the like are bad, but that they do not make up for harassment found in various situations in women's everyday lives.

Erika said...

Jabes,

You clearly have no sympathy for female "whiners." Why would any woman who has been fondled or been the victim of harassment tell you about it?

Miklos said...

Wow, you just won an internet. Are you honestly taking /b/ seriously? It is common knowledge that there are no girls on the internet. If such policies were banhammer enforced, everyone would have to get out. Except the overweight men who possess the manbreast...

By the way, tits or GTFO. In before cock or GTFO.

heatherO said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jabes1996 said...

Well I believe this issue is exceedingly rare. You believe it's HUGELY prevalent.

Whatever anecdotal evidence exists, only one of us can be right.

And even though you'll never admit it, I think everybody on this board knows it's me.

Feminists have a long history of making up whatever numbers they need to, to achieve the hysterical message they need to meet their political agenda.

Let's see there's the BS "superbowl" hoax of 1994. There's the BS 100,000 girls die of anorexia PER YEAR (making it a bigger killer than breast cancer), the 1 in 4 women will be raped (or unsuccessfully raped) during their college career. The list of BS studies goes on and on.

NOBODY has had any rebuttal about the nearly universal ability to /IGNORE in online games.

I bet most black males sure wishes he had these kind of cakey problems as his major gripe.

Unbelievable. Whatever it takes to represent women as the "underclass" let's ignore the fact that men make up 99% of war combat deaths, 95% of on-the-job deaths (when females # is 50% THEN come back to me about equal pay), 80% of all homeless, 75% of the victims of all violence (even when you roll in rape & dv), and 80% of all suicides.

So when you say "women have it sooooo easy" I say (if these articles is THE BEST you can come up with versus men's problems I laid out about) I say: "yup!"

Jabes1996 said...

Not to mention men die 7-10 years earlier than women, and women's health care gets 2 to 1 funding over men's once you eliminate gender neutral funding.

I can read the headlines now :"women can't even enjoy online games without (sniffle) big bad men pestering them (don't mention /ignore--I'm not listening, I'm covering my ears and singing blahladedoodeedeha!)

Harq al-Ada said...

"NOBODY has had any rebuttal about the nearly universal ability to /IGNORE in online games"

Because it is too much to ask that one can avoid harassment in the first place. Also, there are some people who harass women who might have info a certain player needs, and a player might get ostracized if she /IGNORES too many people. "Hey, this bitch is too good to talk to us dudes. Don't trade with her or talk with her."

"I bet most black males sure wishes he had these kind of cakey problems as his major gripe."

Your appeal to the "oppression olympics" does not impress me. American Indians have it worse than blacks, so should we just ignore blacks' problems? This is the most recockulous argument I have ever heard. It rings especially hollow as an antifeminist argument in the current age, as feminism increasingly includes race and class issues in its discourse.

"Unbelievable. Whatever it takes to represent women as the "underclass" let's ignore the fact that men make up 99% of war combat deaths, 95% of on-the-job deaths ..., 80% of all homeless, 75% of the victims of all violence (even when you roll in rape & dv), [if you go by crime report data that doesn't consider unreported crime. -HA] and 80% of all suicides."

These things are true and should be addressed, but again, see my criticism of the oppression olympics. Just because men have problems doesn't mean that women do not as well. Women get paid less than men through discrimination in hiring and promotion (as well as benign factors such as them being more likely to take time off for childcare etc.) The portion of domestic violence that is pervasive battery (as opposed to mutual, heat-of-the fighting) is usually done against women, women's lifetime incidence of completed or attempted rape is scarcely ever estimated by any study to be below about 15% and many studies (not just that early one with the questionable methodology) as high as 25%, women in various public situations report high incidence of harassment, and sexism really does not have much stigma in large sections of society, a point which can be observed by anyone with eyes and a brain connected to them.

Since I answered your point about the ability to /IGNORE, now you can tell me why any thinking person shouldn't consider you utterly absurd for saying sexism doesn't exist and in the same breath that women are pathetically oversensitive.

Miklos said...

What are these oppression olympics of which you speak? If they are anything like the special olympics, you just might win.

Cum Grano Salis is all I have to say. I think the leap from online shenanigans to battery and rape is just a tad absurd. Carry on children.

Harq al-Ada said...

"What are these oppression olympics of which you speak? If they are anything like the special olympics, you just might win.

The Oppression Olympics is the debate over which group is oppressed the most in society. It is a bit of a waste of effort because it denies the fact that every group has issues that deserve attention, and that one group's oppression does not preclude another's.

"Cum Grano Salis is all I have to say. I think the leap from online shenanigans to battery and rape is just a tad absurd. Carry on children."

Remember who first made the leap from this issue to gender issues as a whole. Hint: not me.

Miklos said...

Fair enough, but I still think that our efforts should be focused upon real issues, i.e. those that are actually harmful. Bottom line is, the gaming community as a mass (not individuals) is fairly agressive in their persecution of all groups. Any individual who enters a server is just as likely to be lambasted from every possible angle. Smack talk is part of the ultra-competitive nature of gaming. I'm a boy and I won't play with people I don't know because of this. I think it is really unessecary to prove yourself better than random strangers. With friends it is different, but anonymously it is pathetic. All gamers, male and female, have to deal with morons. Just turn off the headset, and p0wn them into the the stone age.

Jabes1996 said...

Hello Harq Al Ada: My comments follow.

"Because it is too much to ask that one can avoid harassment in the first place. Also, there are some people who harass women who might have info a certain player needs, and a player might get ostracized if she /IGNORES too many people. "Hey, this bitch is too good to talk to us dudes. Don't trade with her or talk with her."

Wow, all I can say is wow. That is so very...............delusional. #1 it shows your belief that most males are evil and ready to attack women, #2 it shows your over representation the power (ESPECIALLY IN ONLINE GAMES) that one person can hold over another. If a mob drop is valuable, then more peeps farm those mobs. You can attain most anything you "need" from many many different people.

"Your appeal to the "oppression olympics" does not impress me. American Indians have it worse than blacks, so should we just ignore blacks' problems? This is the most recockulous argument I have ever heard. It rings especially hollow as an antifeminist argument in the current age, as feminism increasingly includes race and class issues in its discourse."
Two points
A) It's not an oppression olympics. It's about the fact that female suffering COUNTS MORE (according to you & your ilk).
Could you even imagine the outrage if 80% of the homeless were WOMEN, or if 80% of the successful suicides were WOMEN? The main-stream media are YOUR liberal boys & girls in charge. Black male on black male murder gets totally overlooked. Why? Because the MSM's don't want to opinion the concept that blacks' problems are their own fault. So, thanks to MSM's 'benevolent' help the problem continues unabated. This is YOUR liberal journalistic class that makes this possible.

B)Feminists are racially inclusive? Is that why Clinton supporters are telling black women who are voting for Obama that they're misogynists?

MY last point (not brought up by you):
This victim-hood (by any logic necessary)is really repulsive. More importantly it's a really infantilizing and insulting view of women.

"Yes, little Brianna you can be anything you want to be thanks to feminists! You can be an astronaut, test-pilot, CEO, Judge, head of state, soldier, lifeguard. But remember big-mama government will always be there to give you a much needed leg-up in online games, and math & science classes (we all know those docile meek math teachers are secretly chest-beating, beer-swilling, gun-rack toting, 4wheeling misogynists that hold women down). Big-mama government will always be there for your much needed leg-up when applying for fire fighter, police or any other agency that you can't get into that MUST be (presumed) because of discrimination)."

What a sad sad road feminism has traveled since the days of "I am woman hear me roar".

And NOW has the gall to WONDER why their dues-paying members are the smallest in 30 years?

Radical feminists' days are numbered (especially of the press automatically spewing their joke "studies"). Society (especially women themselves) are throwing off the damaging effects of feminists' delusions. Soon maybe these people will even be prosecuted for the immense harm they have done to men, children (and yes even women).

And for all of your talk about oppresion olympics, don't you think it's just a TAD ironic that we're talking about THIS issue instead of the thousands of black males murdered by black males every year?

I have yet to see an article about this issue! And I read USA today everyday!

Some people can't see the forests for the trees. But they will.....soon.

Well, obviously I'm not going to change your mind.
All I can say is:

One of us has their views based upon experience and looking at the larger view and educating themselves. One of us has their view literally spoon fed into their brain, blindly trusting that their feminists masters know what they're talking about (despite their long history of faking numbers--how many lies do they have to spew before they lose YOUR support Harq?).

Jabes1996 said...

To Harq:

"75% of the victims of all violence (even when you roll in rape & dv), [if you go by crime report data that doesn't consider unreported crime. -HA)

Don't forget that male prison rape is also not reported.

There's not even STUDIES done to estimate how bad this is--shows you how much big Mama gov & the MSM's care about rape when the victim has a penis.
Some estimates (from newly formed prison rape activist groups) state it could be as high as female rape in overall society. (The reason is that women are only raped once. But these unlucky men in prison get raped repeatedly dozens or hundreds of times a year.)

Usually during the first rape (which is typically a group of assailants) the assailants want to set a tone to thwart future resistance. So the victim is raped with brooms and bats and other implements so savagely they have to get an emergency colastomy.

I believe this more than cancels out your little HAHA moment. (Are you matching wits with me in the oppression olympics? I thought you were above that?).

Where are the MSM stories on this? Let's listen: cricket chirp, cricket chirp.

I'm not the one saying female problems don't exist. I'm saying this online abuse is extremely rare! There's a difference.

However YOUR feminist inspired MSM's do seem to be self-censoring these stories of black male genocide, and male prison rape, homelessness, suicide, 5000 male on-the-job deaths per year, the health care disadvantage (against men), the educational boy-crises are just a few more MSM favorite stories to NOT print.

So I guess it's feminists guilty (of your claim) to be denying other groups suffering.

Harq al-Ada said...

"Because it is too much to ask that one can avoid harassment in the first place. Also, there are some people who harass women who might have info a certain player needs, and a player might get ostracized if she /IGNORES too many people. "Hey, this bitch is too good to talk to us dudes. Don't trade with her or talk with her."

Wow, all I can say is wow. That is so very...............delusional. #1 it shows your belief that most males are evil and ready to attack women, #2 it shows your over representation the power (ESPECIALLY IN ONLINE GAMES) that one person can hold over another. If a mob drop is valuable, then more peeps farm those mobs. You can attain most anything you "need" from many many different people."

This is where I have to admit that I do not know much about mmorpg culture; I was making a speculation that I think could be at least possible. If the economies of games like WOW are very open-ended and not dependent on specific people on specific servers than this particular speculation of mine is probably wrong. Since it seems to be pretty much just the two of us still talking here, we unfortunately will not likely be able to hear the perspectives of any of those women who have presented as male.

"A) It's not an oppression olympics. It's about the fact that female suffering COUNTS MORE (according to you & your ilk)."

...continues unabated. This is YOUR liberal journalistic class that makes this possible."

MY ilk? MY liberal journalistic class? Lumping debate opponents with others you don't like is an intellectually dishonest tactic that is far too often used by feminists and their opponents alike.

"B)Feminists are racially inclusive? Is that why Clinton supporters are telling black women who are voting for Obama that they're misogynists?"

The relatively young third-wave feminists who I read do not take this position; in fact most of them support Obama. Clinton and NOW are uncomfortable remnants of the past that feminism is moving past.

"MY last point (not brought up by you):
This victim-hood (by any logic necessary)is really repulsive. More importantly it's a really infantilizing and insulting view of women."

I believe that human beings are tough and can probably handle mild forms of oppression such as is the subject of this thread. However, in this modern age of alleged enlightenment they should not have to.

"Yes, little Brianna you can be anything you want to be thanks to feminists! You can be an astronaut, test-pilot, CEO, Judge, head of state, soldier, lifeguard. But remember big-mama government will always be there to give you a much needed leg-up in online games, and math & science classes (we all know those docile meek math teachers are secretly chest-beating, beer-swilling, gun-rack toting, 4wheeling misogynists that hold women down). Big-mama government will always be there for your much needed leg-up when applying for fire fighter, police or any other agency that you can't get into that MUST be (presumed) because of discrimination)."

From what I can tell feminism has in the past couple of decades become less oriented toward government coercion and more toward spreading awareness of obstacles so that women can more easily overcome them.

"Radical feminists' days are numbered (especially of the press automatically spewing their joke "studies")."

The scare quotes around "studies" are a nice touch. They apparently don't even warrant acknowledgment as BAD science in your view. I am personally critical of the few often-cited feminist studies which have a clear bias. However, more credible and rigorous studies often bear out feminist ideas as well; one should be vigilant enough to tell the difference since they are often cited interchangeably (I concede that this is clearly the fault of feminists).

"And for all of your talk about oppresion olympics, don't you think it's just a TAD ironic that we're talking about THIS issue instead of the thousands of black males murdered by black males every year? "

Either you don't understand the Oppression Olympics or you don't understand irony. My point is that just because one issue may or may not be more "important" than another in the greater scheme of things, it is still fine to talk about other issues. Public discourse, especially in a realm as large as the internet, has room for discussion of virtually everything. You don't get mad at people for baby-blogging or video-game reviewing because they don't address your pet issues, do you?

"I have yet to see an article about this issue! And I read USA today everyday!"

Yes, this is a problem. If you want to read about racial oppression, though, feminist blogs are not a bad start.

"One of us has their views based upon experience and looking at the larger view and educating themselves. One of us has their view literally spoon fed into their brain, blindly trusting that their feminists masters know what they're talking about (despite their long history of faking numbers--how many lies do they have to spew before they lose YOUR support Harq?)."

My personal intellectual development as relates to feminist issues has always been one of caution. It has taken quite awhile for me to be convinced of what I have, and I still don't buy all their arguments. I agree with a few MRA arguments, for instance, which itself disqualifies me as an acolyte of the cackling feminist overlords.

"Don't forget that male prison rape is also not reported.

There's not even STUDIES done to estimate how bad this is--shows you how much big Mama gov & the MSM's care about rape when the victim has a penis."

Probably more to do with how we disregard the welfare of prisoners, but I concede that more focus should be put on the issue.

"Some estimates (from newly formed prison rape activist groups) state it could be as high as female rape in overall society. (The reason is that women are only raped once. But these unlucky men in prison get raped repeatedly dozens or hundreds of times a year.)"

That is truly unfortunate. However one should be clear that lifetime propensity of a population to be raped at least once and number of times raped are different things. One is not necessarily more important than the other, but it is really an apples and oranges comparison.
colastomy.

"I believe this more than cancels out your little HAHA moment. (Are you matching wits with me in the oppression olympics? I thought you were above that?)."

I wasn't aware I was using a "gotcha." And it is not about trying to overcome the concerns of black men by stating that women also have issues, but disputing an argument I perceived on your part that men's issues, especially black men's, are the only important ones. You may or may not have been trying to say that; it was my perception that you were.

"Where are the MSM stories on this? Let's listen: cricket chirp, cricket chirp."

The idea that feminists are an all-powerful cabal that control the media is undermined by the fact that feminist media is FAR more likely to address issues of race than the MSM (among other reasons). MSM /= feminism.

"I'm not the one saying female problems don't exist. I'm saying this online abuse is extremely rare! There's a difference."

You did seem to branch far outside the original topic toward something that looked a lot like "female problems don't exist."

"However YOUR feminist inspired MSM's..."

The MSM would probably do well to take more inspiration from feminists than they do currently; they currently do not take much.

"So I guess it's feminists guilty (of your claim) to be denying other groups suffering."

Or perhaps merely having the audacity to focus on the issues of their choice, rather than those deemed more important than jabes1996. But like I said, this focus is not absolute and feminists make more room for race and class issues than many other groups and certainly more than the mainstream media.

Miklos said...

TL:DR

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